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jiminycricket1 74M
5535 posts
11/24/2019 6:01 am
I'm confused


I know we break down the evidence analyse, and put together our own conclusions.. That are sometimes biased and self serving.. In a way we all do it.

So straight forward fact, can ultimately be misconstrued, with sides of an argument. So any real policy issue to be an issue requires asides and facts and their interpretation.

I get that...

What I don't is the misinterpretation of the actions of a person...Not based on evidence..
But the way they present their own evidence. This idea is not based in fact, so your chance of being wrong are far greater than analyzing the facts..

I am confused about feelings and intuition, not facts.. The only difference between a good actor and a real person.. is your feeling about what is real. It's like our lives are watching a movie passing in front of Us, where reality is JUST a choice. What is it about the actor and the actions that make it real?

The sense the feeling and the intuition of what is honest reality. I find it difficult to believe.. I can be totally wrong.. That no matter the agreement or disagreement..No matter the story line.. That my judgment of the actors can be that far off from reality..

My only conclusion is not that those would disagree have a different view.. I simply must conclude they have no view at all.


jiminycricket1 74M
13732 posts
11/24/2019 6:33 am

So let me put in my REAL terms..

They are many actors on both sides..And real can be in vary degrees which are personally applied.

Despite the story, the dialogue, and the scenery...There is feeling , and intuition, that gives the actors substance and makes it real.
Yet, I find it hard to deny...I find it hard to NOT believe in our commonality of feelings and intuition..about reality and truth
I can not believe it is wrong, until their is evidence to the contrary..So in my own self judgment of it.. I am totally OPEN to be proved wrong..

During the hearings.. What was evident to me.. is that EVERY single person who testified had substance....Almost every single Democrat who asked questions had substance..Yet I questioned almost every single Republican who asked question as having any substance..Although many of you will think it's a choice, based on agreement and disagreement...or analyzing the facts.. It had nothing do with that..It had nothing to do with the story or the dialogue. And since it's my feelings and intution...It is possible I am wrong.
.
Schummer, especially came off as having substance..as being real...not only in his actions but in biting his tongue.. Those who degrade him, and accuse him.. Did so for that reason.. to deny his substance. Again, I am open to being wrong

I am NO longer open about Trump.. my feelings and intuition about him has been closed.. The only evidence I have received about Trump confirms my feelings and intuition, about what KIND of person he is. It and He... has never been shaken, has never stirred my imagination to the contrary....


sparkleflit 76F
10271 posts
11/24/2019 8:31 am

Bigblock says Sondland is "just person with an opinion"......so the US Republican Party is a cult......Only Americans are confused about that....the rest of the World clearly sees the mass hysteria.....


LeafReport 73M

11/25/2019 2:41 am

    Quoting  :

This is laughable of course but you know it. It's what makes you such a lovable buffoon here. It's a fact dude...thousands of pigs are taking a dump right now in your state.


LeafReport 73M

11/25/2019 3:19 am

Fantasy that mirrors credible reality is great entertainment. I'm talking Hollywood here. There are a few examples I can provide to help illustrate my point. Archie Bunker was wonderful entertainment because of the clever ways absurdity was exposed. It was easy to recognize because the absurdity itself was genuine.

The television show M.A.S.H. was another classic that was masterful in the way they handled absurdity too. They made room for absurdity so skillfully that it became possible to weave it into the horror of war so that as humans we could feel completely. That is hard to do. It was no small thing to make us laugh, cry, love, hate, succeed, fail and pray all in 30 minutes. Think about the significance of that accomplishment? This is what we need to feel human and that program delivered like few do. There was no absence of 'viewpoint' leaving you without emotion.

The reality we are struggling with today, and I'm talking about the cultural and political divide, lacks two essential components in the formula I just provided. I'm sure that you could identify others, but the present reality lacks both success and failure. All the others remain present. It can't feel credible without those components and thus doesn't feel real. It's an abyss and that is why so many of us, society at large, feel frustrated and empty but not totally without hope. The search for hope has to have confidence that all of the components are achievable. This is what has been so damaging in Donald Trump. He has stolen that spirit from both his own supporters and those who oppose him. That reality is worse than a cancer because it has no result.

Perhaps that's too deep a discussion for you to relate to. For me, the perspective has roots in religious faith, but that's not the point I'm trying to make.


jiminycricket1 74M
13732 posts
11/25/2019 6:58 am

    Quoting LeafReport:
    Fantasy that mirrors credible reality is great entertainment. I'm talking Hollywood here. There are a few examples I can provide to help illustrate my point. Archie Bunker was wonderful entertainment because of the clever ways absurdity was exposed. It was easy to recognize because the absurdity itself was genuine.

    The television show M.A.S.H. was another classic that was masterful in the way they handled absurdity too. They made room for absurdity so skillfully that it became possible to weave it into the horror of war so that as humans we could feel completely. That is hard to do. It was no small thing to make us laugh, cry, love, hate, succeed, fail and pray all in 30 minutes. Think about the significance of that accomplishment? This is what we need to feel human and that program delivered like few do. There was no absence of 'viewpoint' leaving you without emotion.

    The reality we are struggling with today, and I'm talking about the cultural and political divide, lacks two essential components in the formula I just provided. I'm sure that you could identify others, but the present reality lacks both success and failure. All the others remain present. It can't feel credible without those components and thus doesn't feel real. It's an abyss and that is why so many of us, society at large, feel frustrated and empty but not totally without hope. The search for hope has to have confidence that all of the components are achievable. This is what has been so damaging in Donald Trump. He has stolen that spirit from both his own supporters and those who oppose him. That reality is worse than a cancer because it has no result.

    Perhaps that's too deep a discussion for you to relate to. For me, the perspective has roots in religious faith, but that's not the point I'm trying to make.
You have wonder how there can be people who don't get it..
How reality and absurdity can meet together...tied in bow.. with an emotional connection that IS REAL..
The character of Archie Bunker.. was as real as real can be. In fact once you make the emotional connection..He was the only real character on that show. And what it should say to you...Is you don't have to do and to be LIKE Archie Bunker..To be Archie Bunker.
The same goes for MASH and it's depiction of the War. Every single character in MASH, portrayed a reality.. in their own absurdity, if you could connect emotionally to WHO they... were instead of WHAT they were.

There is a judgement to be applied today...It has nothing to do with the What of it.
It's whether or not.. the WHO of it..can be YOU. Today that decision..is not about what a person does, that you could also do..It's about WHO that person is and is that person like YOU.. Would a person like Nunez or Trump.. Would you want to be like them..Would you want to be who they are? Can you accept the absurdity of it, because of the What of it.. and reverse the the reality of it..so that YOU become absurd.? Can you lose the emotional connection, have no feelings and intuition..that could sit on your shoulder and whisper in your ear what reality really is.?

Mash and All In the Family, were not a subversion of reality....But a subconscious connection to reality. The emotional connection..Turned the absurd into a reality.

Today both those show would be politically incorrect..
Voiding it of emotion..Succumbing to the judgement of fact..the What of it.. instead of the the Who of it..

We have become stagnant to our own emotional connections...So the absurd stays absurd....So we never "get it" ..our reflection in a fun-house mirror.
Our reflections are about what it ISN'T..... Instead of what it IS..


jiminycricket1 74M
13732 posts
11/25/2019 7:58 am

The amazing technological advances..and the detriment of video games and social media..

That voids the discovery of who, and replaces it with only the What.

A video game depiction of War...that destroys our sense of the who. the reality of the WHO
And Social media.. that that thwarts our discovery of who... to be replace with just the what of it.

On 60 minutes last night.. there was a segment on "mind reading".. points of the brain activity can be read..that are not just technical, but emotional.. However, It left out the most important aspect... Our brain are incomplete at birth and these points are not all just physical aspects of the brain.. They are developed.

It's an unusual the case of autism.. Which the study shows as a physical trait..that limits emotional responses by the physical development of the brain

That suicide is related to lack of development in the emotional connection of the brain. That controls empathy and free will... And that is the greatest of PAINS to endure... that leads to suicide

What the show said to me..that it didn't say.. Was that we begin soft wired..and what happens to us.. Makes Us hard wired.
Video games and Social media.. limits the development of the brain..For emotional and connective responses.
It hard wires US to think of the the what..Not the who.
.It add to meaning of being self centered..Not as to have or in taking an advantage.. but to disconnect..

It's makes me wonder.. If it's the second coming, or the rapture.
If it's only a monkey wrench of evolution.. to test our development...
Of evolution's 'natural selection"..Survival of the fittest....
To make a final test of our humanity, and select only those that can survive it.

And the final absurdity of the what instead of the who...For Liberals and Conservatives... It's more about agreement and disagreement of "Climate Change"
Talk about putting the cart before the horse...the solution before the problem.
Talk about how a genius is an idiot..if you can compare it to a moron.


jiminycricket1 74M
13732 posts
11/25/2019 9:32 am

    Quoting sparkleflit:
    Bigblock says Sondland is "just person with an opinion"......so the US Republican Party is a cult......Only Americans are confused about that....the rest of the World clearly sees the mass hysteria.....
You can read Sondland opinions on his face.. You can relate to his conflict.

There was simply no better person to testify..That explained what was going on.. Not in minds of those who partook.. but in their hearts..

It's an easy decision to testify when one is not conflicted...It's an easy decision to agreed or disagree with someone who is not conflicted.

but there is a an emotional rub..of the reality of a conflicted testimony..

big is a great example. of why we disagree, and his absurdity.. because he never lets on his conflicts.. we don't know if he even has them. And that is an absurdity.
Don't ever think we will get satisfaction of "big'" realizing his conflicts and mistakes...His self judgment will ALWAYS live in the shadows..And WE will never know the change it has made. First, Big simply can't allow it .. but if it does...and more important, never give us the satisfaction from it.

Three people who testified.. Provided the essence of the hearing.. Provided the reality....Showed us the conflict...that so many closed their eyes to..
It's ironic that the evidence required.. Was provided, not by those without conflict, but by those who were. the irony that those witnesses were Republican witnesses.
Sondland, Volker and Morrison..are the key witnesses.. it was written on their faces, it was the emotion behind it...It was in the hedging, that show us their conflict.. It was their self defense, that showed us their victimhood.

Of course we think of Yovanivich as the victim....but she doesn't have to live in the shadows..
Sondland, Volker, and Morrison Do... and there are others, I feel more sorry for...The unlike Sondland Volker and Morrision....get to stay in the shadows and not confront their self identified enemy.

It's not as hard to stand up for what you believe at the time.. than to stand up for what you are against... When you make that conflicted "mistake" along that way.
The fact that Sondland, Volker and Morrison even testified.. is all you have to know about them and their conclusions.. that can no longer live in the shadows.
Their being compelled to testify.. had nothing to do with a subpoena...That the strength in numbers can not protect you.. against the number ONE.


jiminycricket1 74M
13732 posts
11/25/2019 10:16 am

For All the others.. they are waiting...
For some the President as a reason for them not to testify...
For others a proven "safe" bet of a subpoena.... as an excuse to testify..
It's hopeless for those who believe the President is a reason.. not to testify.. they went into a hell and are going to stay there..
Those that went into hell, and were willing to use a subpoena as an excuse to get out Hell..
Will come up a day late and dollar short.. to buy their way out.

Although i can not relate to those who think the president is a reason.
I relate to the others.. I connect to the others..
It's My daily tree of life, of going out, and then falling off a limb..... that's no different than my own conflicts... conflicts so stagnant...that the choice of Doing nothing.. Seems the only choice I am able to make. When that once seemed implausible..... And now just proves to myself.. that it's a bitch getting old.


jiminycricket1 74M
13732 posts
11/25/2019 3:09 pm

"And the final absurdity of the what.. instead of the who...For Liberals and Conservatives... It's more about agreement and disagreement of "Climate Change"
Talk about putting the cart before the horse...the solution before the problem.
Talk about how a genius is an idiot..if you can compare it to a moron."


i WANT TO DISCUSS THIS FURTHER .. AS MANY OF YOU .. ESPECIALLY LIBERAL DON'T GET IT..

Let's assume the solution to the problem is cutting out fossil fuels.. That's what they tell you..
Much like their idea of the impeachment of Trump.. Is not a solution

those thing are just a minor part of the solution.. so minor in fact .. that if you take care of the rest.. You'd NEVER have to do it..

there is litany of things..That solve the problem..

First and foremost.. is respect for the environment..Clean air and clean water, the fight against ALL pollution. recycling, renewable energy. and maintaining natures beauty and protected area. AS a Priority

When you negatively impact that ....with profit and greed, lack of foresight, self serving, generational responsibility, elitism, competitiveness, supply and demand, A government that doesn't serves all the people, and ability to SACRIFICE..

Then nothing else... you can do... will matter.
It's like someone is going to commit suicide.. so you take away the gun and leave the hanging rope.


LeafReport 73M

11/26/2019 2:00 am

    Quoting jiminycricket1:
    You have wonder how there can be people who don't get it..
    How reality and absurdity can meet together...tied in bow.. with an emotional connection that IS REAL..
    The character of Archie Bunker.. was as real as real can be. In fact once you make the emotional connection..He was the only real character on that show. And what it should say to you...Is you don't have to do and to be LIKE Archie Bunker..To be Archie Bunker.
    The same goes for MASH and it's depiction of the War. Every single character in MASH, portrayed a reality.. in their own absurdity, if you could connect emotionally to WHO they... were instead of WHAT they were.

    There is a judgement to be applied today...It has nothing to do with the What of it.
    It's whether or not.. the WHO of it..can be YOU. Today that decision..is not about what a person does, that you could also do..It's about WHO that person is and is that person like YOU.. Would a person like Nunez or Trump.. Would you want to be like them..Would you want to be who they are? Can you accept the absurdity of it, because of the What of it.. and reverse the the reality of it..so that YOU become absurd.? Can you lose the emotional connection, have no feelings and intuition..that could sit on your shoulder and whisper in your ear what reality really is.?

    Mash and All In the Family, were not a subversion of reality....But a subconscious connection to reality. The emotional connection..Turned the absurd into a reality.

    Today both those show would be politically incorrect..
    Voiding it of emotion..Succumbing to the judgement of fact..the What of it.. instead of the the Who of it..

    We have become stagnant to our own emotional connections...So the absurd stays absurd....So we never "get it" ..our reflection in a fun-house mirror.
    Our reflections are about what it ISN'T..... Instead of what it IS..
That is the point I am making...stagnant because of the absence of success and failure. This is what calling the reality an abyss conveys. Once society addresses this absence we can emerge from stagnation. It's a slow and painful process. Impeachment moves us forward, the court ordering Trump to provide access to tax returns is another, and yesterday the judge who ruled that McGhan must honor the congressional subpoena was another. Impeachment forces McConnell to climb out from under his rock. The country has had enough of this but as slow and frustrating as it has been we are addressing the obvious. We are now witnessing the exhausting impact of obstruction of justice. Americans want to play by the rules, the emotional rules, the legal rules, the physical rules and the intellectual rules. Without feeling complete we cannot live completely. That is why you feel confused.


LeafReport 73M

11/26/2019 2:20 am

    Quoting jiminycricket1:
    You can read Sondland opinions on his face.. You can relate to his conflict.

    There was simply no better person to testify..That explained what was going on.. Not in minds of those who partook.. but in their hearts..

    It's an easy decision to testify when one is not conflicted...It's an easy decision to agreed or disagree with someone who is not conflicted.

    but there is a an emotional rub..of the reality of a conflicted testimony..

    big is a great example. of why we disagree, and his absurdity.. because he never lets on his conflicts.. we don't know if he even has them. And that is an absurdity.
    Don't ever think we will get satisfaction of "big'" realizing his conflicts and mistakes...His self judgment will ALWAYS live in the shadows..And WE will never know the change it has made. First, Big simply can't allow it .. but if it does...and more important, never give us the satisfaction from it.

    Three people who testified.. Provided the essence of the hearing.. Provided the reality....Showed us the conflict...that so many closed their eyes to..
    It's ironic that the evidence required.. Was provided, not by those without conflict, but by those who were. the irony that those witnesses were Republican witnesses.
    Sondland, Volker and Morrison..are the key witnesses.. it was written on their faces, it was the emotion behind it...It was in the hedging, that show us their conflict.. It was their self defense, that showed us their victimhood.

    Of course we think of Yovanivich as the victim....but she doesn't have to live in the shadows..
    Sondland, Volker, and Morrison Do... and there are others, I feel more sorry for...The unlike Sondland Volker and Morrision....get to stay in the shadows and not confront their self identified enemy.

    It's not as hard to stand up for what you believe at the time.. than to stand up for what you are against... When you make that conflicted "mistake" along that way.
    The fact that Sondland, Volker and Morrison even testified.. is all you have to know about them and their conclusions.. that can no longer live in the shadows.
    Their being compelled to testify.. had nothing to do with a subpoena...That the strength in numbers can not protect you.. against the number ONE.
Sondland's testimony surprised me. On the other hand I think we're getting to the bottom of the barrel when it comes to those willing to go down with the ship. The recently fired Navy Secretary may signal we've reached the bottom. But it was Hill's testimony that I wanted to hear the most. It was the only way to get a peek into what Bolton may have been coping with. Now that McGhan has to honor the subpoena we may indeed hear from Bolton soon. We are at the point where willingness to go down with the ship is stupid, and not patriotic. It will be painful watching lawmakers tip toe through the tulips.


LeafReport 73M

11/26/2019 2:31 am

    Quoting jiminycricket1:
    "And the final absurdity of the what.. instead of the who...For Liberals and Conservatives... It's more about agreement and disagreement of "Climate Change"
    Talk about putting the cart before the horse...the solution before the problem.
    Talk about how a genius is an idiot..if you can compare it to a moron."


    i WANT TO DISCUSS THIS FURTHER .. AS MANY OF YOU .. ESPECIALLY LIBERAL DON'T GET IT..

    Let's assume the solution to the problem is cutting out fossil fuels.. That's what they tell you..
    Much like their idea of the impeachment of Trump.. Is not a solution

    those thing are just a minor part of the solution.. so minor in fact .. that if you take care of the rest.. You'd NEVER have to do it..

    there is litany of things..That solve the problem..

    First and foremost.. is respect for the environment..Clean air and clean water, the fight against ALL pollution. recycling, renewable energy. and maintaining natures beauty and protected area. AS a Priority

    When you negatively impact that ....with profit and greed, lack of foresight, self serving, generational responsibility, elitism, competitiveness, supply and demand, A government that doesn't serves all the people, and ability to SACRIFICE..

    Then nothing else... you can do... will matter.
    It's like someone is going to commit suicide.. so you take away the gun and leave the hanging rope.
This is an issue where I don't care as much about the result but about the process. I've accepted the reality of what is happening to the planet. I want action, bold action and without delay. But this is the greatest economic opportunity since the digital age exploded into our laps. In fact, it's the greatest opportunity since the industrial revolution. We can completely transform world cultures and the way we live and simply reap the benefits. One giant leap for mankind...on EARTH. Nothing is better than that. You have to question the mental stability of climate deniers...and then question their motives. It's time to get on with it and enjoy the challenge and the satisfaction that is virtually guaranteed.


jiminycricket1 74M
13732 posts
11/26/2019 6:11 am

    Quoting LeafReport:
    That is the point I am making...stagnant because of the absence of success and failure. This is what calling the reality an abyss conveys. Once society addresses this absence we can emerge from stagnation. It's a slow and painful process. Impeachment moves us forward, the court ordering Trump to provide access to tax returns is another, and yesterday the judge who ruled that McGhan must honor the congressional subpoena was another. Impeachment forces McConnell to climb out from under his rock. The country has had enough of this but as slow and frustrating as it has been we are addressing the obvious. We are now witnessing the exhausting impact of obstruction of justice. Americans want to play by the rules, the emotional rules, the legal rules, the physical rules and the intellectual rules. Without feeling complete we cannot live completely. That is why you feel confused.
MY response was not to suggest different.. but to explain my agreement.

I realized something today..about your responses.that makes me realize any disagreement we have..

"Let's assume the solution to the problem is cutting out fossil fuels.. That's what they tell you..
Much like their idea of the impeachment of Trump.. Is not a solution"


I dealt with climate change. now let me deal with Trump... and impeachment.
There are two factosr for a solution.. Partisanship, and HOW we determine what is the truth..The solution MUST be bi-partisan and have an agreement to the Truth .It's the solution simply because it's what Trump fights against. Who would disagree.. that bi-partisanship and agreement to the truth.. IS NOT a good thing?

It seems to me, that the invisible mountains we climb are much more treacherous. Than the real mountain of climate change..The invisible difference of opinion. In which the reasons make no sense. Where unintended consequences can not be explained or defined. Where it seems so natural it becomes unquestionable. where we fight against our commonality
How easily we can define one side of the argument..but not define our own side.

I'm not going to bother to define the Right you can see it... How they define the truth, through their partisanship...How they VOID our commonality. How it is always US against them.
Certainly those thing prevent the Trump solution, so they must take the lions share of the responsibility. Their imaginary support of Trump.. the voids commonality, bi-partisanship and the TRUTH..How do you show them they are climbing an invisible mountain. Where up is down and down is up.. the perils of it, that will lead them to the lowest valley

I read things different than most people..some say they can read between the lines..I don't think that.. My subjectivity causes me to read the big picture before I break it down to the parts. My big picture almost always finds the commonality first. Almost Always, because I am fallible too. I am a hypocrite too.. It is in my failure to follow my own advice that causes me to give it. To remind myself of our commonality.

So both you and I need to judge something about ourselves..

How we define the truth, through our partisanship...How we VOID our commonality. How it is always US against them.

Unlike "big' our conflict about those thing.. MUST NOT stay in the shadows.


jiminycricket1 74M
13732 posts
11/26/2019 7:58 am

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely..

Well here's mine....About power and politics

Sometime the correct answer is Not the Right Answer....
but the Absolute correct answer is Absolutely NEVER the right answer.

The solution to our problems.. does not reside in the correct answer.. It resides in the right answer ..

No matter how you slice our dice it...The right answer resides in the CONFLICTS of the correct answers. So only conflicted people can come up with the right answer.


LeafReport 73M

11/26/2019 7:25 pm

I truly dont like us against them. I never felt like that in my entire professional life. It was Dick Cheney for me that first created the perception of 'them'in our society. I've despised his public policy horseshit ever since.


jiminycricket1 74M
13732 posts
11/27/2019 6:57 am

    Quoting LeafReport:
    I truly dont like us against them. I never felt like that in my entire professional life. It was Dick Cheney for me that first created the perception of 'them'in our society. I've despised his public policy horseshit ever since.
Off the subject.. what perplexes me.. is why you are the only person here i can talk with. The others don't get it.... The way I talk and what I mean..

But YOU do..

Just in the discussions we have..The apparent disagreement.. the ideas about it and the conflict is really a simple idea.. That those on the right here couldn't understand in a million years...And those left just ignore it..

In reality any disagreement we have is about my DEFENSE of the right.. which I present in not so easily understood terms.. but you understand it...And that's our only disagreement

However you may also understand..... I would NEVER give that courtesy to TRUMP.
It's the way I roll.. Not because I think Trump is stupid.. but because every word he speaks, everything he does...Reeks with the smell of .. HE THINKS I'm Stupid.
Which is a personal affront.. which may or may not be right. because he's not alone in that.. i have dealt with that affront my entire life..

But that's just a small part of why I hate him.
I wish I could tell his supporters why I hate him so much..So they could understand....Trump is different than any other person I have known.
He's no different than others who choose to see someone else, who disagrees as stupid.
But I have NEVER seen anybody like him.. who has not even afforded his supporters, who agree.....the courtesy of NOT being STUPID.

We can try to hash out who's smart and who's stupid...but what's the point?
What I only know for sure.. is that Trump thinks everybody is STUPID.
He's not just an affront to me.. He's an affront to US all.


jiminycricket1 74M
13732 posts
11/27/2019 7:06 am

We see other people talk in support of Trump....We think how can they do that..?
But what I think.. Is that MOST of Them... TRY to NOT insult our intelligence. Regardless of whether or not they agree with Trump, and think we are just stupid.

That is the key...to Trump
That is the key to Trump's defense..
To combat the fact.. That TRUMP insults our intelligence everyday.